[Cob] Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 35

[Bill Wright]

I LOVE THIS GROUP. . . It feels very heartening for me to have the support of all of your thoughtful responses as I seek the best way forward.

Have any of you with Hydronically Heated Earthen Floors noticed a, "Softening Effect" of the floor (when the system is on of course)? . . .making the floor more easily dented or chipped?

Thanks again!
Bill


Bill Wright, L.Ac., DNBAO
Wright Acupuncture and Massage
251 Auburn Ravine Rd., Ste. #205
Auburn, CA 95603
Schedule Online! Go to. . .
www.auburnacupuncture.net
530-886-8927
"Qi is not a thing. . . 
It flowers out of our love-affair with life." 


> On Sep 5, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Sukita Crimmel <mudgirl at sukita.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Bill Wright
> 
> I just read over this email thread.
> I have installed many earthen floors with hydronic and electric grid heating systems. The water is not more than 120 degrees, and the earth be at least 1' above the height of the tubes. The tubes have been in base pours of concrete, gypcrete, earth, and road base. I have also poured 1.5" finish pours that directly wrap around the tubes.
> The oil blend I use (Claylin Oil) is a mix of heat treated linseed oil and tung oil, pine rosin, beeswax and pine and citrus solvents. The heat treatment is the traditional way to get the drying oils oxidizing, heavy metals are doing the "modern" job of that. The solvents do have VOC's, but natural occurring ones.
> 
> I have not had sticky issues with the oils on my floors. I wonder if the story of sticky linseed oil is because the oil was not completely oxidized, so still sticky? Or the polymer chains breaking down from the heat, which creates sticky?
> 
> Let me know if you want to communicate more directly.
> Sukita
> mudgirl at sukita.com
> 
> *A note on VOC's :*
> 
> As a note, not all VOC's are created equal. The intent behind the indoor air quality question is to protect ourselves from breathing too many harmful compounds. Many VOC's used in a variety of products out there, even 'Green' products, are indeed quite harmful. Others, such as the Citrus Solvent and Pine Terpenes we use, are less harmful (unless with excessive exposure). They are powerful compounds and needs to be respected as such, always wear respirators and good ventilation. They are free of more traditional solvents such as Benzene, Cobalt or Formaldehyde.
> 
> The VOC levels of our finishes are listed below:
> 
> Claylin Oil -- 198.8 g/L )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 9/2/2017 10:00 AM, coblist-request at deatech.com wrote:
>> Send Coblist mailing list submissions to
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>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>    1. Re: Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34 (Barbara Roemer)
>>    2. Re: Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34 (Bill Wright)
>>    3. Re: Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34 (Graeme North)
>>    4. Re: Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34 (Jill)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:51:29 -0700
>> From: Barbara Roemer <roemiller4 at gmail.com>
>> To: coblist at deatech.com
>> Subject: Re: [Cob] Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34
>> Message-ID:
>>    <CAAisY8EucfMtme=rQLrxoMRCue_t9V3H+ufMtmjqz=_FbbmT9w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> 
>> Hi Bill,
>> 
>> We had an earthen floor in our bathroom under a heat lamp.  I doubt the
>> floor ever got as warm as it would with radiant heating, though.  We used
>> Bioshield Hard Oil #9.  That oil is primarily linseed & tung, although it
>> does contain drying agents, such as zircon and cobalt, albeit lead free.
>> It also contains a pine resin.  You might want to check into it rather than
>> straight (or cut) linseed oil.  I went to Bioshield #9 after I had a
>> stickiness problem with straight linseed.  I offer cautions as follows.
>> 
>> While it would seem that a pine resin is completely innocuous, being a
>> "natural" product, it is hydrocarbons from pine pitch that combine with
>> ozone from Sacramento to bring really nasty air here in the foothills.
>> While the metal driers are lead free, cobalt is still a heavy metal.  Hard
>> Oil #9 is billed as breathable and elastic.  It worked beautifully for us
>> in a bathroom, although for about a week after the floor has been oiled,
>> the smell is pretty strong.  After that, it dissipates entirely.  Water
>> beads up on it and doesn't soak in.
>> 
>> Although we have a base of at least two feet of gravel beneath the earthen
>> floor, last winter was so wet that outside moisture moving into the drier
>> floor was trapped beneath the hard oil, and we ended up with a lot of
>> mold.  So, breathable?  I'm not so sure what that means.  Waterproof? maybe.
>> 
>> So, if you have excellent drainage (as in a very effective curtain drain),
>> and you use a product like #9 which has hardeners and driers in it, you
>> would probably be fine running hydronic except for the week or two after
>> you re-oil the floor.  I would definitely not use linseed alone, even if
>> you opt for a floor that's stabilized with ~ 10% cement.  You would really
>> want to experiment with a lime floor: we did and were still unsuccessful.
>> We have a lime cement floor in our current bathroom and anything heavier
>> than a toothbrush dents it.  Looks beautiful, but chipped: I"m going to
>> eventually remove it and use stained concrete. BTW, we do have hydronic
>> heat at the edge of the lime cement floor, and that works great.  The floor
>> heats up for about 3' beyond the sink where the hydronic unit is installed
>> in the toe space on the vanity.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Barbara Roemer
>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 10:00 AM, <coblist-request at deatech.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Send Coblist mailing list submissions to
>>>         coblist at deatech.com
>>> 
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>         http://www.deatech.com/mailman/listinfo/coblist
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>         coblist-request at deatech.com
>>> 
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>         coblist-owner at deatech.com
>>> 
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Coblist digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>    1. Hydronic Heating of Earthen Floor (Bill Wright)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 08:51:27 -0700
>>> From: Bill Wright <bill at auburnacupuncture.net>
>>> To: coblist at deatech.com
>>> Subject: [Cob] Hydronic Heating of Earthen Floor
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <083DA134-D9B3-4EBF-8FCD-89D3C1F56006 at auburnacupuncture.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>>> 
>>> Greetings,
>>> I'm prepping for the install of an Earthen Floor in my building. I have
>>> been planning on installing the tubing as well to heat the floor for
>>> hydronic radiant heating. I've received a couple unsettling accounts around
>>> the negative impact of hydronic heating systems in Earthen floors,
>>> including the following:
>>> 
>>> A local Natural Home builder experienced with Earthen Floor installation
>>> was sharing some insights about hydronic heated systems in earth floors and
>>> how they effect the oil finish.
>>> 
>>> He mentioned that when the earth heats up, the placidity factor of earth
>>> increases because of the linseed oil. He shared that the oil becomes tacky
>>> when heated to the point where he no longer turns on the floor heat because
>>> the floor surface gets too sticky and ruined his rugs.
>>> 
>>> I had not heard of this happening before, but seems worth investigating.
>>> I'm not sure if there is an additive that can be used in the linseed oil
>>> that helps it stay stable when heated? Might the addition of Portland
>>> cement, or lime into the Earthen Floor help with its properties when heated?
>>> 
>>> BTW, for my install I'm following the procedures and protocols for a,
>>> "compacted gravel (road base) subfloor", as outlined on pp. 109-112 in the
>>> book: "Earthen Floors - A Modern Approach to an Ancient Practice" by Sukita
>>> Reay Crimmel
>>> And James Thomson Copyright 2014 by New Society Publishers. Though the
>>> system of the install is really tangential to the issue of how hydronic
>>> heating affects the finish surface of these types of floors.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks!
>>> BIll
>>> 
>>> Bill Wright, L.Ac., DNBAO
>>> Wright Acupuncture and Massage
>>> 251 Auburn Ravine Rd., Ste. #205
>>> Auburn, CA 95603
>>> Schedule Online! Go to. . .
>>> www.auburnacupuncture.net
>>> 530-886-8927
>>> "Qi is not a thing. . .
>>> It flowers out of our love-affair with life."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>> 
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>>> ------------------------------
>>> 
>>> End of Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34
>>> ***************************************
> 
> -- 
> Sukita Reay Crimmel
> Natural Building Consultant / Artist
> 503.957.6132
> www.sukita.com
> Please consider donating to my time.
> 
> “Although the surface of our planet is two thirds water, we call it Earth. We say we are earthlings, not waterlings. Our blood is closer to seawater than our bones to soil, but that’s not matter. The sea is the cradle we all rocked out of, but it’s to dust that we go. From the time that water invented us, we began to seek out dirt. The further we separate ourselves from the dirt, the further we separate ourselves from ourselves. Alienation is a disease of the unsoiled.”
> Tom Robbins
> Another Roadside Attraction
> 
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