[Cob] Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34

[Graeme North]

Hi Bill

I would be concerned about the durability of hydronic pipes embedded in earth floors.
If you must have them, setting them underneath earth floors on top of the sub-floor seems much more sensible to me in case of uncontrolled cracking of the earth or other unanticipated behaviour. 
Simply put, I do not think it wise to treat earth as a simple concrete substitute and place hydronic pipes in earth the same way you would in concrete ands expect the same outcome. 

As to the effect of heat on linseed oil - certainly heat plus humidity makes linseed tacky.  
I am not sure if this is a feature of heat alone or heat plus higher humidities as that latter condition is unknown to me
My (limited) understanding is that linseed oil, when it dries, forms weak single cross links with other oil molecules whereas Tung oil forms double cross links that are harder to break.
My experience of oiled earth floors in hotter parts of a house in a humid climate leads me to use Tung oil for preference, or possibly at least a blend-  but I have not tried that.

I would certainly not use cement or lime - so many of the characteristics that make an earth floor so nice would be badly compromised.   

And forget any idea of not installing a damp proof membrane under an earth floor if there is the slightest risk of damp soils around the building and therefore water vapour under the floor.


Cheers

Graeme




> On 2/09/2017, at 6:06 AM, Bill Wright <bill at auburnacupuncture.net> wrote:
> 
> Cheers Barbara!
> Many Thanks!
> Very helpful.
> bill
> 
> Bill Wright, L.Ac., DNBAO
> Wright Acupuncture and Massage
> 251 Auburn Ravine Rd., Ste. #205
> Auburn, CA 95603
> Schedule Online! Go to. . .
> www.auburnacupuncture.net
> 530-886-8927
> "Qi is not a thing. . . 
> It flowers out of our love-affair with life." 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 1, 2017, at 10:51 AM, Barbara Roemer <roemiller4 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Bill,
>> 
>> We had an earthen floor in our bathroom under a heat lamp.  I doubt the
>> floor ever got as warm as it would with radiant heating, though.  We used
>> Bioshield Hard Oil #9.  That oil is primarily linseed & tung, although it
>> does contain drying agents, such as zircon and cobalt, albeit lead free.
>> It also contains a pine resin.  You might want to check into it rather than
>> straight (or cut) linseed oil.  I went to Bioshield #9 after I had a
>> stickiness problem with straight linseed.  I offer cautions as follows.
>> 
>> While it would seem that a pine resin is completely innocuous, being a
>> "natural" product, it is hydrocarbons from pine pitch that combine with
>> ozone from Sacramento to bring really nasty air here in the foothills.
>> While the metal driers are lead free, cobalt is still a heavy metal.  Hard
>> Oil #9 is billed as breathable and elastic.  It worked beautifully for us
>> in a bathroom, although for about a week after the floor has been oiled,
>> the smell is pretty strong.  After that, it dissipates entirely.  Water
>> beads up on it and doesn't soak in.
>> 
>> Although we have a base of at least two feet of gravel beneath the earthen
>> floor, last winter was so wet that outside moisture moving into the drier
>> floor was trapped beneath the hard oil, and we ended up with a lot of
>> mold.  So, breathable?  I'm not so sure what that means.  Waterproof? maybe.
>> 
>> So, if you have excellent drainage (as in a very effective curtain drain),
>> and you use a product like #9 which has hardeners and driers in it, you
>> would probably be fine running hydronic except for the week or two after
>> you re-oil the floor.  I would definitely not use linseed alone, even if
>> you opt for a floor that's stabilized with ~ 10% cement.  You would really
>> want to experiment with a lime floor: we did and were still unsuccessful.
>> We have a lime cement floor in our current bathroom and anything heavier
>> than a toothbrush dents it.  Looks beautiful, but chipped: I"m going to
>> eventually remove it and use stained concrete. BTW, we do have hydronic
>> heat at the edge of the lime cement floor, and that works great.  The floor
>> heats up for about 3' beyond the sink where the hydronic unit is installed
>> in the toe space on the vanity.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Barbara Roemer
>> 
>>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 10:00 AM, <coblist-request at deatech.com> wrote:
>>> 
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>  1. Hydronic Heating of Earthen Floor (Bill Wright)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 08:51:27 -0700
>>> From: Bill Wright <bill at auburnacupuncture.net>
>>> To: coblist at deatech.com
>>> Subject: [Cob] Hydronic Heating of Earthen Floor
>>> Message-ID:
>>>       <083DA134-D9B3-4EBF-8FCD-89D3C1F56006 at auburnacupuncture.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>>> 
>>> Greetings,
>>> I'm prepping for the install of an Earthen Floor in my building. I have
>>> been planning on installing the tubing as well to heat the floor for
>>> hydronic radiant heating. I've received a couple unsettling accounts around
>>> the negative impact of hydronic heating systems in Earthen floors,
>>> including the following:
>>> 
>>> A local Natural Home builder experienced with Earthen Floor installation
>>> was sharing some insights about hydronic heated systems in earth floors and
>>> how they effect the oil finish.
>>> 
>>> He mentioned that when the earth heats up, the placidity factor of earth
>>> increases because of the linseed oil. He shared that the oil becomes tacky
>>> when heated to the point where he no longer turns on the floor heat because
>>> the floor surface gets too sticky and ruined his rugs.
>>> 
>>> I had not heard of this happening before, but seems worth investigating.
>>> I'm not sure if there is an additive that can be used in the linseed oil
>>> that helps it stay stable when heated? Might the addition of Portland
>>> cement, or lime into the Earthen Floor help with its properties when heated?
>>> 
>>> BTW, for my install I'm following the procedures and protocols for a,
>>> "compacted gravel (road base) subfloor", as outlined on pp. 109-112 in the
>>> book: "Earthen Floors - A Modern Approach to an Ancient Practice" by Sukita
>>> Reay Crimmel
>>> And James Thomson Copyright 2014 by New Society Publishers. Though the
>>> system of the install is really tangential to the issue of how hydronic
>>> heating affects the finish surface of these types of floors.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks!
>>> BIll
>>> 
>>> Bill Wright, L.Ac., DNBAO
>>> Wright Acupuncture and Massage
>>> 251 Auburn Ravine Rd., Ste. #205
>>> Auburn, CA 95603
>>> Schedule Online! Go to. . .
>>> www.auburnacupuncture.net
>>> 530-886-8927
>>> "Qi is not a thing. . .
>>> It flowers out of our love-affair with life."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> ------------------------------
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>>> End of Coblist Digest, Vol 15, Issue 34
>>> ***************************************
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> We are stardust,
>> We are golden,
>> We are billion-year-old carbon,
>> And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
>> 
>>                                                  -Joni Mitchell
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