Cob: Re: Please Help, update and clarifications

[Liberaro at aol.com]

Dear Listers,

I have been simply OVERWHELMED with the outpouring of solidarity, well 
wishes, and very constructive and informative letters sent to me privately 
and on the cob list.  I would like to take this opportunity to say a couple 
of things.  First off, the most oft given advice is to deal constructively 
and politely with the building code people.  I will be following this advice, 
I spoke with the code people this morning and I found them to be very 
receptive and empathetic (I cried) to our situation.  The boss of the guy who 
actually came out here said that he would personally come out and walk us 
through everything and let us know what we have to do to comply.  If we are 
cooperative and show that we are willing to work towards compliance (and we 
are) then we won't be removed.  Regarding a lawyer, I moved from a city where 
I was a legal secretary and so I contacted the attorneys there that I used to 
work for, I was referred to an attorney locally.  The response from the local 
attorney was "if you can't afford a septic system, then you can't afford me!" 
 True that.  So much for that method.   Also, a friend of a friend is a 
plumber and said that he would come out to see how much work and $ it will 
take to hook up the travel trailer to the septic tank.  Let's see, what else, 
oh yes, I wanted to respond to William who sent me a few kind letters of 
support, in one of his letters he sent to the entire list he was under a 
misunderstanding that my post was comprised of snipets from letters from many 
different listers.  In fact it was all one letter that I was responding to, I 
have had 100% POSITIVE and supportive letters from fellow cobbers on this 
list (with the exception of the 1 letter).  don't give up on this list, 
William, the people are great!  I will try to respond to as many letters as I 
can, but in the immediate future I must focus on getting this place ready for 
an inspection in the next few days.  THANKS TO EVERYBODY for the outpouring 
of helpful links, prayers, and solidarity.  

In a message dated 7/1/99 11:54:35 AM EST, mzan at arn.net writes:

<< Dear Trina: thank you for taking the time to answer my letter and explain 
 things. I think if you will go back and re-read your very first letter to 
 the cob list, you will see how it really sounds. It 'sounded' as if you 
 were living in an old garage somewhere, hiding out from the building code 
 inspector and not having proper facilities. You should have explained all 
 this in your FIRST letter.>>

I am very sorry for any confusion that my 1st letter may have caused.  I hope 
my follow-up cleared some of the issues up.

<<It sounds as if you are afraid of me. I dont have any desire to try to hunt 
you down or turn you in the welfare for any reason.>>

Can't tell you how glad I am to hear that!

<>

No, No.  You misread my post.  I said that it isn't that I just choose to not 
install plumbing even though my bank account spilleth over (sarcasm).  I do 
not have any money.  If I had money in the bank i would have plumbed the 
house (temporary) or installed a composting (bought variety) toilet.  It is 
my understanding that composting toilets are not allowed in our area, though, 
i will have to ask the inspectors if this is true.  i would rather have a 
composting toilet anyway rather than a water wasting flush variety.

<<Since you posted my letter without my permission on the cob list, I've 
received all kinds of mail from people who agree with me about the dangers of 
pooping on the ground for a  permanent solution, not a temporary weekend 
'camping' experience.>>

I apologize for posting your letter to the cob list as a whole.  it was most 
certainly not meant as an attack against you, but rather a forum where i had 
hoped that the most experienced and learned among us could comment about the 
safety of our living conditions and therefore eleviate some of your anxiety.  
as mentioned above, the outpouring of letters of support that i have received 
has been overwhelming.  also, please note that i never expressed the desire 
for pooping on the ground to be a permanent solution to anything, it was only 
temporary (albeit not only a weekend) as we were planning to build an 
outhouse with composting toilet and then get plumbing when we could afford 
it).  

 <<Also I received one nasty hate letter from a 'cobber? who thinks its 
mature to 
 call people cockroaches. If I was the sort of person that this letter 
 writer is, I would plaster his name all over the cob list. Name calling 
 is so childish. I assumed by your posting your problem on the cob list 
 that it was open for discussion. I tried discretion with you but you took 
 it upon yourself to post my private letter to you for the world to see, 
 so now I assume you want this public and am confused by the fact that NOW 
 you want me to forget you. This is confusing.  I think you probably ought 
 to do more reasearch from reliable sources about your choice and be open 
 to change if need be for your sake as well as your children's. But then 
 again, that's your decision. >>

I am very sorry about any personal attacks on you that resulted from this 
thread.  Again, I never wanted to villify you in any way, I just wanted 
greater input from everyone on the list about the purported dangers of our 
living conditions.  It is true that i shouldn't post to a list and then ask 
that you forget me. however, i never *dreamed* that when i posted to the cob 
list i would get the response that i got from you, it scared me.  i began to 
feel that perhaps you would try to have child protection come to save my 
children from me, that is why i asked that you forget me.  in terms of doing 
research from reliable sources, I already have, and that is also why i posted 
to the cob list - this list is full of "reliable resources" and has been 
proven by the many educated and helpful letters i received pointing me 
towards websites galore (you know who you are ;-D).  again, i apologize for 
any personal attacks that you have endured, it was not my intention.

 <<Did I mention that once my husband and 3 kids lived in a terrible old tin 
 house with only a woodstove to warm us? WE enjoyed the lifestyle. WE had 
 a septic tank. We noticed the grass grew so well over it, we planted a 
 garden there on top of it, all in ignorance of course, about 20 years 
 ago, and we had a bumper crop of veggies. But.....we all kept getting 
 sick and staying sick with such things as staph infections, bacterial 
 infections, and eventually my baby girl had to be hospitalized with a 
 strange form of bacteria. After the dr sent it to the lab, we found out 
 that it had come from eating the vegetables planted over the top of the 
 septic system. ANd it was below ground!!! I would have never knowingly 
 risked my baby's life in order to have a garden there. WE had someone 
 check out the septic system and it had improperly been installed and was 
 leaking germs, bacteria into the ground all around the house. the 
 building code inspector came and said we had to install a new septic 
 system or move. We lived in a small community of about 150, almost in the 
 country. WE had bought that house for $15,000. Took a loss of 10,000 on 
 it when we had to sell it in order to move. But...my children became 
 healthier when we left and had less infections, etc. So, since I 
 personally can't put a price tag on a human life, especially my 
 childrens, I can honestly look back and say, yes, the $10,000 loss really 
 hurt us, really set us back, but at least no one became ill again. to me, 
 it was worth it.>>

Thank you for sharing this information, however, i am at a loss to see how it 
relates to my situation out here.  i would never DREAM of putting a garden on 
top of a septic system (no offense, we all have to learn somewhere), but 
since you know that i don't have an hooked up septic system is the inference 
that somehow we are pooping in or around our food supply?  if so, rest 
assured this is not the case.  Again, i repeat, we are all healthy as can be 
and haven't been sick once since we moved here.   as i mentioned before, we 
have 40 acres - we use the "facilities" far, far away from the living areas.  
by the way, all of the land is *downhill* from the house area.  i'm glad 
everyone survived your septic garden situation, but i am confused as to why 
you had to sell the land and move, surely a new septic system would have been 
cheaper than the $10,000 loss you took on the property?  couldn't you have 
just moved the garden?  

<<By the way, I wanted to ask. How old are your children and how do THEY Feel 
about not having toliet facilities? >>  

my children have voiced no opposition to our living conditions.

<< Since I know you will probably put this one on the entire cob list too,>> 

Only for the clarification of everyone, not out of 'disrespect' for you or 
something like that.

<<let me address the issue of the man who sent me the nasty letter calling 
 me filthy names. WHat a childish way to voice your opinion. Is that all 
 you've learned in your adult life, or are you an adult? I will not open 
 any letters from you so don't bother to send them. If you can't discuss 
 something reasonably in an adult way, I will not discuss them with you. 
 It shows your mental age as well as your education level and how you 
 handle and deal with issues that make you uncomfortable, by name calling. 
 that's what my 4 year old granchildren do. God bless you anyway.>>
 
no comment.

<<Trina, I wish you the best of luck but in my state, the building code 
 inspectors can't inspect something outside the city limits. I'm surprised 
 that since you live out, they could even make such a visit. I'll be 
 praying for you and your little family. I understand your plight. Be 
 careful about decisions affecting your children. THey're only here one 
 time around. God bless you and help you.
 sincerely mz
  >>

Thank you for your letters.

sincerely,
trina